(This conversation will contain spoilers for the current chapters and possibly for future chapters.)

S: Oh, Edmund! He is certainly not seeing what the reader is seeing regarding Miss Crawford. Her jab at the clergy he takes as a joke, yet I am certain she is as uninterested in the Church as he is interested in it. And poor Fanny – once again she is forgotten and spoken to harshly. Although I dislike Miss Crawford, she does understand the scene – Fanny has indeed not been given compliments as much as she deserves them.

R: Edmund is blinded by first love. I wonder whether Miss Crawford realises that he’s got a crush on her and is leading him on, or if she actually likes him a little. She certainly ends up in his and Fanny’s company often enough. 

I almost felt sorry for Sir Thomas at the beginning of this chapter. While he’s not a great father, I feel like the horror of his return was a little over the top. The Bertram girls just don’t want him ruining their fun. 

S: I read the horror at his return as less horror and more kind of like he’s the stoic father who can’t really see anything past business; a stick in the mud.

It appears that my first impression of Dr. and Mrs. Grant was wrong – according to both Miss Crawford and Mr. Bertram they quarrell quite often. How hard for Fanny, too, to know that Mr. Crawford prefers Miss Bertram yet second guesses herself because Edmund tells her she is wrong. Tom certainly is very selfish, but I can’t argue with him that it is very vexing when someone asks you to do something in such a way that makes it very difficult for you to say ‘no’ – manipulation at its finest.

R: I’d forgotten Tom was even gone when he came back! I was surprised to see that Miss Crawford does actually seem to like Edmund for himself, despite his intention to take orders. Now I wonder if she thinks she can talk him out of it.

Mr. Crawford is definitely playing games with the Miss Bertrams, and I see that as going very badly sometime soon. I just have to shake my head that Edmund doesn’t see what’s happening when Fanny points it out.

I thought it was funny that Fanny was so interested in dancing with Tom. He’s so self-absorbed that I can’t see why she’d care. In general, Fanny seems to have much better discernment of people than anyone else. 

S: I think it was less interested in dancing with Tom and more just wanting to be included and be young like everyone else. I do agree with you, though, that she has the best discernment out of anyone we’ve met. 

Edmund’s infatuation with Miss Crawford, I am afraid, is making him question his morals and ideals. He brings up some good points about not wanting to have those in his family put on a play, but once he is informed of Miss Crawford’s joining, seems to change his tune a bit. I wonder what this will mean for the future and if it will tarnish Miss Bertram’s reputation as Edmund thinks it will.

R: This seemed like another rather odd chapter to me. We are introduced to yet another character, John Yates, who is an acquaintance of Tom. He shows up, invited but unexpectedly early, and induces the others to get in on his scheme of putting on a play. 

Some of Edmund’s objections seem to stem from the cost of putting together a stage. With the debts Tom had wracked up before his father took him away, I can understand Edmund’s concern. The rest, respecting their father’s scruples and protecting the reputations of his sisters, are also noble. I don’t like that he lets Miss Crawford sway him from his convictions. I hope she doesn’t have too great an influence on him.

S: Chapter 14 is hilarious to me. It reminds me of being in a group as a child or teenager and trying to figure out what to do – feelings get hurt, decisions are not easily made – it’s all so elementary school and middle school. And, – oh dear! – Fanny knows that this play is rather raunchy and is very surprised that it should have been chosen by her family and their friends.

R: I find all of these people tiresome, at best. And yes, they are all acting like children. Edmund’s views of doing the play are entirely vindicated by this and by how inappropriate the content is. As determined as they all are, though, I don’t think Edmund will be able to stop them.

S: What in the world is happening in Chapter 15? My goodness, Mrs. Norris is really pushing my buttons! She is absolutely horrible to Fanny and so very unkind to others! I think what really makes me angry is that I know exactly how Fanny feels because something similar has happened to me on multiple occasions where I have felt bullied and unheard, thinking that I’m at fault for not wanting to do something when the truth is I have just as much a right to say ‘no’ to something as the other people have to ask. 

R: Mrs. Norris is such an odd one. On the one hand, she expects extreme propriety from Fanny in most cases, but seems to have no problem with any of her nieces acting in a highly inappropriate play, even just among family and friends, to the point of actually nearly forcing Fanny to participate, despite it being more than obvious that Fanny doesn’t want to.

S: I’m not a fan of Miss Crawford because we know that she’s good at the game she’s playing, but I do appreciate that she saw Fanny’s agitation and embarrassment and tried to console her even though it was probably mostly to get back into Edmund’s good graces. Speaking of Edmund, I’m rather surprised he didn’t help Fanny until after Mrs. Norris flipped her lid, but I wonder if this was because he was trying to encourage her to speak her mind and stick to her convictions. At least it appears he knows the play as well and is extremely put out that it is being performed.

R: I don’t think I like any of the characters in this book so far, except for Fanny and Edmund, and even Edmund is rankling me a bit at this point. I can see that he might be trying to nudge Fanny to take more initiative or self-advocacy, but under the circumstances, I think he would have been better to help her out. I agree that Miss Crawford was good in this scene to help comfort Fanny, despite the fact that she may have had ulterior motives.

S: This story is so differently written than Sense and Sensibility and Pride and Prejudice, and to be honest, I have some trepidation about reading on simply because so many of the characters are difficult to enjoy reading. However, soldier on I will! It’s Jane Austen, so I know that it must end on a happy note! Perhaps I just need to try and read it with humour and a ‘bless their hearts!’ attitude.

R: I agree with you there! It’s really almost like there’s no protagonist in the story, just a really bad ensemble cast.

S: That’s it! It also feels like she’s experimenting with a different writing style, so maybe that’s why it feels strange.

(This conversation will contain spoilers for the current chapters and possibly for future chapters.)

R: Maria’s intended joins their little band as Tom Bertram goes off somewhere, and we start here with a conversation that I frankly couldn’t care less about. The end result is that everyone is going to go off to see a house that Mr. Rushworth is improving, except they intend to leave Fanny behind to stay with Lady Bertram.

S: Although it is a bit boring, as some dinner conversations are wont to be, I actually enjoyed this chapter; it offers such insight into the newcomers’ characters. Mr. Rushworth certainly has an air about him which reminds me of Mr. Collins from Pride and Prejudice, and this chapter cements the fact that Miss Bertram is really not in love with him. (I can almost hear her thinking, ‘Why did I not wait a tad longer? I could have snagged Mr. Crawford rather than this fool.’) 

I also quite like the fact that not everyone is taken in by Mrs. Norris – Dr. Grant certainly can’t stand the woman. Further, we begin to see how little Miss Crawford understands the farmer’s way of life and, even though she hears what Edmund says about it, I’m unsure if she’s quite willing to embrace it. I cannot help but compare her to Fanny who is so soft-spoken and seems unwilling to speak unkindly of anyone; Miss Crawford says whatever is on her mind, regardless of how it makes another person’s character appear.

R: The next chapter makes me want to kick Edmund. He and Fanny have a little conversation about Miss Crawford in which he expresses some distaste for some of her behaviour and opinion, but when the lady receives a harp, he goes to visit her nearly every day to hear her play. Then he starts borrowing the horse he bought expressly for Fanny to teach Miss Crawford to ride, with the promise that it would never inconvenience Fanny or interfere with her rides. Instead, they start keeping the horse later and later until Fanny just starts telling Edmund that she doesn’t want to ride most days. 

Edmund seems to have fallen quite head over heels for Miss Crawford, but recalls Fanny when she ends up ill from running hither and yon on errands for her aunts one day. And his recovery seems complete: ‘Vexed as Edmund was with his mother and aunt, he was still more angry with himself. His own forgetfulness of her was worse than anything which they had done. Nothing of this would have happened had she been properly considered; but she had been left four days together without any choice of companions or exercise, and without any excuse for avoiding whatever her unreasonable aunts might require.’

S: Initially, I was also rather irritated with Edmund, probably because I relate more to Fanny in temperament and understand how deep that type of hurt can be, but I realised as I read on that I probably would have acted as she did, thinking that things would get better soon, and holding in the disappointment so as to not appear ungrateful or selfish. Perhaps she also is having a difficult time figuring out her feelings. We know at the end of the chapter that she has been dealing with hurt and jealousy, but I wonder if she realised how deep those feelings were until that evening when Edmund took her side and reprimanded his mother and aunt. In a way, I’m not sure I can as yet fault Edmund too very much – he is a man who has begun to have the inklings of love (or should I say infatuation?), and Miss Crawford is so different from the other women in his life.

I also find myself rather uneasy about how Mrs. Norris acts, for, as much as I dislike her, I think about my own attitude, failings, and excuses I can make. I find myself rather horrified that I can act like she does when I know I am in the wrong but am embarrassed and trying to excuse it.

I do think that people don’t give Fanny enough credit – I think she’s stronger than anyone believes she is. If she were treated kindly and not henpecked or pushed aside I don’t think she would be as physically weak as everyone assumes her to be, including Edmund.

R: I think it’s very much human nature to act in ways that we believe will most benefit us, whether intentionally or not. I feel like Mrs. Norris represents all of us at our worst. 

Finally, Fanny goes back to her regular rides, and then Edmund manoeuvres everything to where Fanny can indeed join them on their visit to Mr. Rushworth’s estate, intending to remain behind with his mother himself. But then Mrs. Grant offers to stay with Lady Bertram, so Edmund can go after all. 

There is some debate between the Miss Bertrams over which will sit with Mr. Crawford in the driving seat. Julia wins and Miss Bertram must ride in the back with the other ladies. Miss Bertram is jealous of her sister getting to sit with Mr. Crawford, problematic as she is engaged! I looked up what a barouche looks like because I’ve always wondered, and they are the same or very similar to those you see giving people carriage rides in cities and parks.

S: This chapter was interesting, but I am a bit nervous about what might transpire for Fanny – her luck seems to turn on a dime. Although I do like the way Edmund thinks of Fanny I don’t know if he always thinks about the consequences of making her happy. He bought a horse for her, but she is constantly harangued with Mrs. Norris’s assertions that she still doesn’t exercise enough. He proposed that she visit Sotherton whilst he remained with his mother, but I’m sure that if Mrs. Grant had not chosen to stay with Lady Bertram Fanny would have had a very difficult time visiting Sotherton without Edmund.

R: That’s a good point. Fanny probably would not have enjoyed the trip much without Edmund there. The others would have taken little notice of her or her needs and would have just dragged her along with whatever they wanted to do.

S: Regarding Miss Bertram’s attitude in the barouche, I thought this rather amusing – as much as I dislike her character, I do understand the pride that comes from knowing more about something than others and being able to share it when you have been feeling very out of sorts a moment before.

More and more we are seeing the true nature of the characters. Edmund and Fanny agree on so much, including the importance of family worship, and yet he is still being seduced by Miss Crawford’s careless attitude toward it and life. Mr. Crawford is not being quite fair to Miss Bertram, whispering to her and giving her a certain look when they are near the altar of the chapel together, and I wonder if they are destined for each other. Poor Julia is now subdued and a little humbled by all that transpires. I think my favourite part was the discourse on the importance of the Church and clergymen. 

R: Miss Crawford deserved the shock she got in learning that Edmund was going to be a minister! Fanny seems far better suited for Edmund than Miss Crawford, but he needs a little more time to discover that for himself. I enjoyed that conversation myself.

Mr. Crawford and Miss Bertram are playing with fire, and doing so at Mr. Rushworth’s own estate is particularly obnoxious.

S: We end Chapter 9 and begin Chapter 10 with Fanny once again being forgotten and the thing she had been looking forward to exploring on the grounds abandoned because everyone else was ready to go back to the house. I’m not sure what I would have done in her place – would I have stayed alone, hoping for someone to come back or would I have gone ahead and explored on my own? As she was chastised for remaining, I’m sure she would have been chastised for exploring. Mrs. Norris’s manipulation strikes again and she is the only one in the entire company who left Sotherton feeling contented.

R: Yet again, I feel so sorry for Fanny! Always forgotten by others, even by the one person who usually has any amount of care for her. I’m back to being mad at Edmund. I don’t think I could have been quite so passive as Fanny; I probably would have just gone back to the house on my own. 

I can’t remember any of the details of the story, so I’m looking forward to reading what happens next!

S: I am as well! I’ve enjoyed the first ten chapters.

(This conversation will contain spoilers for the current chapters and possibly for future chapters.)

R: Welcome, readers and thank you for hanging in there through our hiatus. Life was busy and we both needed a bit of a break. Now we’re back and ready to discuss Jane Austen’s next novel, Mansfield Park, published in 1814. This is going to be an interesting one as neither of us is as familiar with this story as we were with Pride and Prejudice and Sense and Sensibility. I have only read it once before and seen one movie adaptation.

S: I have never read it, but one of my friends says it’s his favourite, so I’m excited to be able to talk with him about it!

R: This story starts by telling us about three sisters, none of whom are the main character of the book: Lady Bertram, Mrs. Norris (wife of a minister) and Mrs. Price (wife of a poor marine lieutenant), who proceeds to produce a large quantity of children.

After a number of years of estrangement, Mrs. Price appeals to her baronet brother-in-law for a place for her oldest son, which is provided. Then Mrs. Norris, the minister’s wife, suggests that they should take one of the other children off the overwhelmed mother’s hands–this time a girl. What we don’t learn right away is that Mrs. Norris doesn’t mean for her to take in her niece, certainly not, though she and her husband have a comfortable house and no children. No, she must live with the baronet and his family.

S: I have to say, Mrs. Norris’s character reminds me of both Mrs. Bennet and Lady Catherine de Burgh from Pride and Prejudice, as well as Lucy from Sense and Sensibility – she gives her opinions very freely and is in everybody else’s business. Her manipulation of circumstances and selfishness is vast and rather unsettling, especially considering that she is a minister’s wife. She appears to me to be a woman who is driven by emotion and says what she thinks the person she’s talking with wants to hear. The fact that she insists the best place for her niece to live is in the attic with those who work in the house made me annoyed and sad, but perhaps in her mind she believes it will be the best way for her niece to not feel that she is a Bertram daughter.

R: It seems so unfair that while Fanny is to live with the family and receive tutoring with the Bertram daughters, Mrs. Norris and the Bertrams are so insistent that it’s made clear that she isn’t of the same station. It’s downright demeaning, really, the way they treat her.

S: I feel rather sad for Mrs. Price – she can’t very well turn down this generous offer from her relations, but the obvious fact is that she most likely relies heavily upon her oldest daughter. Without her help around the home with eight other children it will make things very difficult for her. Initially speaking, it appears that it would have been a better choice for one of her sons to live with the Bertrams, although perhaps allowing her daughter to live with a Lord and Lady will open more doors?

R: What a good point! I didn’t think about how much Fanny’s mother would have depended on her to help with the younger children. It was such a common practice for older children to help with the younger. Hopefully, some of the others were old enough to step into Fanny’s place and help their mother.

S: I hope so! 

I don’t quite know how to feel about Lord Bertram. I don’t think he’s necessarily an unkind man, but there is such a degree of snobbishness that appears to be ingrained in him that he may end up making things more difficult for his niece than is necessary. The assumption is that she will be too stupid to understand that she is not his daughter but merely his niece. 

R: They certainly do treat Fanny as if she’s unintelligent and as if they expect her to be difficult when she arrives at the Bertram household at the age of ten. I can’t imagine how painful it must have been to be sent away from one’s family to live with relative strangers, though it happened frequently in those days. 

The Bertrams have two sons who are older, sixteen and seventeen, and two daughters who are twelve and thirteen. Poor Fanny is awkward and afraid of everyone, all made worse by Mrs. Norris superciliously impressing upon her that she must be grateful and happy. While the Bertrams in general mean well, they only make Fanny feel even more inadequate with comments on her lack of belongings and social graces.

S: It really makes my heart sad the way Mrs. Norris, a clergyman’s wife, can be so unkind! Out of all the people in this story I would have expected her to be the most consoling and gentle-spirited, yet she is rather the most harsh, which unfortunately appears to be the thing that most influences her nieces.

R: Mrs. Norris is probably my least favorite character at this point. The only member of the family who makes a real effort to reach out to her is the younger son, Edmund. He realises that she misses her family and offers to give her paper to write to them and whatever else she needs. Basically, he treats her with a simple kindness that the rest of the family doesn’t think to supply. 

S: This little scene made me so happy! What a beautiful picture of how a kind word and a listening ear can offer such comfort to others.

R: Indeed! After this, Fanny is more comfortable with everyone, though her cousins are encouraged to think her stupid by their aunt because she doesn’t know as much as they did by the same age. This is also allowed to happen by Sir Thomas and Lady Bertram as neither pays much attention to what their children are actually being taught.

S: I suppose this shouldn’t be odd to me, but it is. I’m shocked at how little the Bertrams know their children’s characters, especially their daughters’, although I guess it shouldn’t because Lady Bertram appears to love her pug more than her children. She doesn’t really think for herself, but instead relies solely upon her husband and sister. It’s also sad to me that she sees Fanny just as someone useful to her rather than someone.

R: We learn that the eldest boy Tom is in the way of being a problem child, while Edmund is set to be a clergyman; and the girls, Julia and Maria, are becoming the fine young ladies they are expected to be. 

Sir Thomas continues to help the Price family by aiding each of the sons as they reach an age to do so. Fanny never visits home; but her brother William, who had become a sailor, does visit her. 

Edmund continues his kind treatment of Fanny even after going away to Oxford.

S: I was very surprised by this chapter, mostly because Fanny has so little regard for herself that she assumes she’s meant to be treated the way she is being treated and surprised when Edmund is so kind to her. It is good to note, though, that we are told she is indeed intelligent, despite what the people who gossip about her may think. Edmund, who spends time with her, sees her intelligence, and for me this shows that there may be a light kindled for her to begin thinking better of herself.

R: It’s always sad to see a child being treated like this. 

Mrs. Norris’ husband dies when Fanny is fifteen and leaves an opening that I think is meant to go to Edmund. I actually don’t understand this part very well. It seems that Edmund isn’t quite finished with his training to be able to take over the parish; but at the same time, his brother’s debts are necessitating some sort of shortage to Edmund, and so a new minister named Dr. Grant and his young wife come to the area.

S: I think that sounds about right. Tom is definitely selfish and self-centered and seems to not understand the consequences his choices are having upon the rest of his siblings and relations.

R: Upon her husband’s death, Sir Thomas expects Mrs. Norris to start taking some responsibility for their niece. As in, he expects Fanny to go live with Mrs. Norris. Fanny isn’t happy at this turn of events. Edmund tries to help her be content; indeed, he thinks it will be a far better position for her. ‘…living with your aunt, you will necessarily be brought forward as you ought to be. Here there are too many whom you can hide behind; but with her you will be forced to speak for yourself.’

Despite her original fears when coming to the Bertrams, Fanny has grown comfortable. I think I’d feel like Fanny. I wouldn’t want to be displaced after five years.

S: I would feel as nervous as Fanny as well, especially when her aunt is so cold-hearted and miserly. Still, this part made me chuckle – Edmund knows Fanny so well and wants others to know her just as well, although it surprises me he doesn’t seem to have a very good character grasp upon his aunt. 

R: All of this is expected by the Bertrams and conveyed to Fanny without saying anything to Mrs. Norris. Mrs. Norris, meanwhile, has taken the smallest house she can so that she will not be expected to have Fanny come live with her. Mrs. Norris is quite the manipulator.

S: And Sir Thomas seems so surprised by it! It astounds me that no one in the family sees who she really is, except Fanny, even though she is too kind to talk about it or perhaps even too kind to put it into words. 

I’m interested to learn more about the Grants – they seem like very giving and sweet people. I hope we hear more of them in future chapters.

R: About a year later, Sir Thomas finds it necessary to see to his estates in Antigua and take Tom with him to get him away from influences in Britain. His departure allows the Miss Bertrams to fall into aimless lack of restraint and indulgence. None of the family particularly miss him.

S: What a heart-breaking scene! I suppose Sir Thomas has never really endeared himself to his family, but he has provided well for them and tries to care for them, even encouraging Fanny to invite her brother to stay for a time at Mansfield. Still, the words he speaks are cruel to Fanny. I wanted to cry with her when he tells her that he doesn’t think she’s changed all that much in the past six years! As the reader we know she’s changed, even with the short conversations she has with Edmund.

R: Fanny’s pony, the purchase of which had been arranged by Edmund, dies and isn’t replaced because naturally ‘she might ride one of her cousin’s horses at any time when they did not want them.’ Who thinks that actually happens? Edmund is away at the time, but as soon as he returns he sets about to rectify the matter. He sells one of his own horses and purchases a mare appropriate for a young woman to ride, giving Fanny essentially full possession. 

‘She regarded her cousin as an example of everything good and great…and as entitled to such gratitude from her as no feelings could be strong enough to pay. Her sentiments towards him were compounded of all that was respectful, grateful, confiding, and tender.’ I don’t know if I’m reading into things at this point, because I do know the ending, but has Fanny got a bit of a crush?

S: My blood boiled a little at the first part of Chapter 4 – no one gives any regard to her happiness save Edmund! How ridiculous that they did not see the importance in allowing her to continue in something she so enjoyed. Edmund does indeed act the hero, and it’s nice to see that he stands up to his family where Fanny is concerned. He has a good way of not rocking the boat so to speak.

R: Edmund is very good at managing his family in many respects; but as you mentioned earlier, he doesn’t seem to have a full grasp on their natures.

Sir Thomas sends Tom home in September, when he was supposed to be returning himself. As winter comes on, a young man named Mr. Rushworth inherits a large local estate and is looked upon to be the prime match for the elder Miss Bertram, and she certainly seems to want to catch the bachelor. They are quickly engaged, with reservation due to Sir Thomas’ absence. 

While they wait to hear from him for approval, the two families spend a great deal of time together. Only Edmund doesn’t appear to care for Mr. Rushworth.  Sir Thomas’ approval is given, however, and their marriage is to take place after his return in the summer.

S: I know it was common practice at the time to ‘secure’ a good husband of fortune, but all the scheming and everything makes my head spin. 

R: How true!

In July, Fanny turns eighteen, and two more young people are added to the acquaintance of the Bertrams – Mrs. Grant’s brother and sister, the Crawfords. Mrs. Grant decides that her sister Mary should marry Tom Bertram, and Mary Crawford is more than happy to go along with it, though she thinks it more of a joke.

Whew, so many characters introduced in just four chapters! Machinations are afoot, and I think poor Fanny is just going to be dragged along for the ride.

S: That seems quite probable!

I don’t know how to feel about the Crawfords. At the moment I still like the Grants, and I hope these two newcomers will treat Fanny kindly. 

R: So the Crawfords fall in with the Bertrams, and both Bertram ladies like Mr. Crawford, but since Maria is engaged, he automatically falls to Julia. Poor man apparently doesn’t get any choice in the matter; indeed his sister straight up tells him that’s who he’s supposed to like, though he likes Maria better. Danger, danger!

The Crawfords also both show great preference for Tom Bertram over his brother, and Mary soon sets her sights more seriously on catching him as a husband.

And poor Fanny just floats along quietly, a bit of a puzzle according to Miss Crawford. There’s a long discussion between her and the Bertram young men over what constitutes a young lady being ‘out’ in society. Essentially, because Fanny doesn’t go to balls but stays home with Mrs. Bertram, she is not considered to be out. 

S: It doesn’t surprise me that Fanny is not out, but it does make me irritated with the rest of her family, including Edmund. I know that when life becomes a little more exciting it is easy to overlook others, but it would not have been that difficult for Fanny to have been taken to at least one ball since we are told there have been so many. I think it really drives home the point that most of the Bertrams are very selfish and, although kind in giving Fanny a home and life she could not have dreamed of, regard her more as a project or servant. I’m trying not to get overly worked up at the injustice of it all.

R: I’m not sure I can blame Edmund too much for this. He and Tom don’t seem to have a good understanding of what it entails for a young lady to be out in society.

Young ladies who were not out weren’t meant to participate in parties and balls, and men weren’t supposed to pay them attention. As pointed out in Pride and Prejudice, this could be trying for younger daughters whose sisters haven’t yet married. It wasn’t a hard and fast rule that younger daughters not come out before their older sisters were married or engaged, but it was the more common practice.  

S: Miss Crawford is very opinionated, which is not necessarily a good thing. I think that some of her opinions have a grain of truth to them, but some have been formed by lack of experience or because of how she grew up, and she doesn’t at the moment seem to be very willing to listen to anyone else’s views. Tom and Henry seem to be cut from the same cloth – they are both charming and a bit proud. I’ll be very interested to see what happens next!