(This conversation will contain spoilers for the current chapters and possibly for future chapters.)

S: We left Fanny visibly shaken from her encounter with everyone trying to make her do something she was unwilling to do, and I’m so happy that she has a room of her own to retreat to, even if it was a sort of cast off no one else wanted. She strikes me as the type who finds enjoyment in the ordinary and sees the potential in things others overlook.

R: I’m so glad Fanny has that space, too. She really needs it to be able to get away from everyone when they’re being overbearing. I enjoyed the descriptions of all the decorations and things that she has around the room. I like that Fanny takes pleasure in and finds use for items that others have rejected because they aren’t perfect.

S: Exactly! She is so gentle.

And then there’s Edmund. The more I read of him whilst he is smitten with Miss Crawford, the less I like him. Although, I must say that his conduct reminds me of my own when I’m trying to reason myself into something I know is wrong or that I had a deep conviction of. How human! And Fanny has no idea what to think now that her stalwart cousin has chosen a different path from the one he had previously so gallantly trod.

R: Oh, I agree entirely. And poor Fanny! She’s almost utterly abandoned even by Edmund. I sort of see his reasoning in preventing bringing outsiders in to witness the foolishness of his sisters, but it does smack very much of him giving in to temptation, though he doesn’t seem to be truly tempted to join in. I think it’s more of a case of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. 

S: I agree, which usually makes it more difficult to make a wise decision. 

In Chapter 17 we find that Fanny is not the only unhappy person in the house; Julia is also frustrated and grumpy, although her emotions are perhaps less for a noble cause. Everyone is so wrapped up in their own doings and emotions.

R: This is going to go so, so badly. I’ve read it before, and I don’t recall what happens, but I think this is going to be an unmitigated disaster. The whole thing is going to come crashing down around their ears.

S: Soon, Fanny finds herself helping everyone, and listening to all their complaints. How exhausting! I would retreat as she did. Unfortunately, it mattered little as both those who were causing her the greatest distress soon sought her out. I don’t know what bothered me more about this chapter: the fact that Edmund is so blinded by infatuation or the fact that everyone takes advantage of Fanny and her one place of solace is now littered with memories that hurt.

R: Poor Fanny, the sounding board for everyone’s problems, great and small, and they manage to draw her into the theatre scheme, even if it is mostly peripherally. The problems between Mr. Rushworth and Miss Bertram seem to be coming to a breaking point. And Edmund is making me so frustrated! I suppose it might be a bit much to expect full maturity from him, though. He is a young man in the depths of his first love, presumably. I love how this chapter ends on a cliffhanger!

S: When I came to the end of the chapter I just had to keep going! For this book I’ve been able to read about a chapter at a time and then take a break because so many of the characters frustrated me, but the book seems to be picking up speed and I couldn’t wait to see what would happen!

The return of Sir Thomas was quite amusing! I very much enjoyed seeing a new side of him, though I do wonder if this was his true personality and he felt he had to be stoic because of how his daughters and oldest son act. Then again, perhaps it was simply the fact that he was finally home and really had missed the people most precious to him – including Fanny. He seems particularly happy to see her and I’m hoping this means she has a new ally.

R: I was surprised but pleased by Sir Thomas’ reaction to seeing Fanny. I felt like he’d been fairly indifferent to her before he left. Perhaps he came to appreciate her sense while he was away, especially in light of what is going on while he is gone.

S: Then, of course, Sir Thomas discovers that his room has been taken over and that his loved ones have been influenced by the type of person he rather dislikes. I honestly do not think Sir Thomas is a mean person; I think he just doesn’t quite know how to balance affection and discipline in his home.

R: I agree with you about Sir Thomas. I think that can be a difficult line to walk with one’s children – showing them love, but maintaining appropriate discipline.

S: I am happy that Mr. Yates and Mr. Crawford are gone! Sir Thomas, though seemingly a dictatorial force to his children, has their best interests at heart, desiring to uphold the family name in respect. I really do dislike Mrs. Norris, and even though Sir Thomas ceases to argue with her, I have a feeling he has her number. At least Edmund was kind enough to make sure his father knew that Fanny was innocent in the scheme; that made me happy.

R: Edmund is back in my good graces with this move! And I’m glad things end before the play actually goes forward. I think it would have been a far bigger deal if Sir Thomas hadn’t arrived until after the fact, or in the middle. I’m not sure if all of this was on the level of ruining his daughters’ reputations, but I imagine it might have opened up the household to censure from their neighbours. What others think of us shouldn’t be our primary reason for concern about our behaviour, but I think the family could represent how we should present ourselves to the world as Christians. 

S: That’s a good point and one, I think, of which Edmund is keenly aware, as is his father, and most definitely Fanny. It’s not that they’re being arbitrary and stubborn; it’s because they understand that they must set a godly example. I’m very interested to see what happens next, now that order appears to have been restored to the home!

(This conversation will contain spoilers for the current chapters and possibly for future chapters.)

S: Oh, Edmund! He is certainly not seeing what the reader is seeing regarding Miss Crawford. Her jab at the clergy he takes as a joke, yet I am certain she is as uninterested in the Church as he is interested in it. And poor Fanny – once again she is forgotten and spoken to harshly. Although I dislike Miss Crawford, she does understand the scene – Fanny has indeed not been given compliments as much as she deserves them.

R: Edmund is blinded by first love. I wonder whether Miss Crawford realises that he’s got a crush on her and is leading him on, or if she actually likes him a little. She certainly ends up in his and Fanny’s company often enough. 

I almost felt sorry for Sir Thomas at the beginning of this chapter. While he’s not a great father, I feel like the horror of his return was a little over the top. The Bertram girls just don’t want him ruining their fun. 

S: I read the horror at his return as less horror and more kind of like he’s the stoic father who can’t really see anything past business; a stick in the mud.

It appears that my first impression of Dr. and Mrs. Grant was wrong – according to both Miss Crawford and Mr. Bertram they quarrell quite often. How hard for Fanny, too, to know that Mr. Crawford prefers Miss Bertram yet second guesses herself because Edmund tells her she is wrong. Tom certainly is very selfish, but I can’t argue with him that it is very vexing when someone asks you to do something in such a way that makes it very difficult for you to say ‘no’ – manipulation at its finest.

R: I’d forgotten Tom was even gone when he came back! I was surprised to see that Miss Crawford does actually seem to like Edmund for himself, despite his intention to take orders. Now I wonder if she thinks she can talk him out of it.

Mr. Crawford is definitely playing games with the Miss Bertrams, and I see that as going very badly sometime soon. I just have to shake my head that Edmund doesn’t see what’s happening when Fanny points it out.

I thought it was funny that Fanny was so interested in dancing with Tom. He’s so self-absorbed that I can’t see why she’d care. In general, Fanny seems to have much better discernment of people than anyone else. 

S: I think it was less interested in dancing with Tom and more just wanting to be included and be young like everyone else. I do agree with you, though, that she has the best discernment out of anyone we’ve met. 

Edmund’s infatuation with Miss Crawford, I am afraid, is making him question his morals and ideals. He brings up some good points about not wanting to have those in his family put on a play, but once he is informed of Miss Crawford’s joining, seems to change his tune a bit. I wonder what this will mean for the future and if it will tarnish Miss Bertram’s reputation as Edmund thinks it will.

R: This seemed like another rather odd chapter to me. We are introduced to yet another character, John Yates, who is an acquaintance of Tom. He shows up, invited but unexpectedly early, and induces the others to get in on his scheme of putting on a play. 

Some of Edmund’s objections seem to stem from the cost of putting together a stage. With the debts Tom had wracked up before his father took him away, I can understand Edmund’s concern. The rest, respecting their father’s scruples and protecting the reputations of his sisters, are also noble. I don’t like that he lets Miss Crawford sway him from his convictions. I hope she doesn’t have too great an influence on him.

S: Chapter 14 is hilarious to me. It reminds me of being in a group as a child or teenager and trying to figure out what to do – feelings get hurt, decisions are not easily made – it’s all so elementary school and middle school. And, – oh dear! – Fanny knows that this play is rather raunchy and is very surprised that it should have been chosen by her family and their friends.

R: I find all of these people tiresome, at best. And yes, they are all acting like children. Edmund’s views of doing the play are entirely vindicated by this and by how inappropriate the content is. As determined as they all are, though, I don’t think Edmund will be able to stop them.

S: What in the world is happening in Chapter 15? My goodness, Mrs. Norris is really pushing my buttons! She is absolutely horrible to Fanny and so very unkind to others! I think what really makes me angry is that I know exactly how Fanny feels because something similar has happened to me on multiple occasions where I have felt bullied and unheard, thinking that I’m at fault for not wanting to do something when the truth is I have just as much a right to say ‘no’ to something as the other people have to ask. 

R: Mrs. Norris is such an odd one. On the one hand, she expects extreme propriety from Fanny in most cases, but seems to have no problem with any of her nieces acting in a highly inappropriate play, even just among family and friends, to the point of actually nearly forcing Fanny to participate, despite it being more than obvious that Fanny doesn’t want to.

S: I’m not a fan of Miss Crawford because we know that she’s good at the game she’s playing, but I do appreciate that she saw Fanny’s agitation and embarrassment and tried to console her even though it was probably mostly to get back into Edmund’s good graces. Speaking of Edmund, I’m rather surprised he didn’t help Fanny until after Mrs. Norris flipped her lid, but I wonder if this was because he was trying to encourage her to speak her mind and stick to her convictions. At least it appears he knows the play as well and is extremely put out that it is being performed.

R: I don’t think I like any of the characters in this book so far, except for Fanny and Edmund, and even Edmund is rankling me a bit at this point. I can see that he might be trying to nudge Fanny to take more initiative or self-advocacy, but under the circumstances, I think he would have been better to help her out. I agree that Miss Crawford was good in this scene to help comfort Fanny, despite the fact that she may have had ulterior motives.

S: This story is so differently written than Sense and Sensibility and Pride and Prejudice, and to be honest, I have some trepidation about reading on simply because so many of the characters are difficult to enjoy reading. However, soldier on I will! It’s Jane Austen, so I know that it must end on a happy note! Perhaps I just need to try and read it with humour and a ‘bless their hearts!’ attitude.

R: I agree with you there! It’s really almost like there’s no protagonist in the story, just a really bad ensemble cast.

S: That’s it! It also feels like she’s experimenting with a different writing style, so maybe that’s why it feels strange.

(This conversation will contain spoilers for the current chapters and possibly for future chapters.)

R: Maria’s intended joins their little band as Tom Bertram goes off somewhere, and we start here with a conversation that I frankly couldn’t care less about. The end result is that everyone is going to go off to see a house that Mr. Rushworth is improving, except they intend to leave Fanny behind to stay with Lady Bertram.

S: Although it is a bit boring, as some dinner conversations are wont to be, I actually enjoyed this chapter; it offers such insight into the newcomers’ characters. Mr. Rushworth certainly has an air about him which reminds me of Mr. Collins from Pride and Prejudice, and this chapter cements the fact that Miss Bertram is really not in love with him. (I can almost hear her thinking, ‘Why did I not wait a tad longer? I could have snagged Mr. Crawford rather than this fool.’) 

I also quite like the fact that not everyone is taken in by Mrs. Norris – Dr. Grant certainly can’t stand the woman. Further, we begin to see how little Miss Crawford understands the farmer’s way of life and, even though she hears what Edmund says about it, I’m unsure if she’s quite willing to embrace it. I cannot help but compare her to Fanny who is so soft-spoken and seems unwilling to speak unkindly of anyone; Miss Crawford says whatever is on her mind, regardless of how it makes another person’s character appear.

R: The next chapter makes me want to kick Edmund. He and Fanny have a little conversation about Miss Crawford in which he expresses some distaste for some of her behaviour and opinion, but when the lady receives a harp, he goes to visit her nearly every day to hear her play. Then he starts borrowing the horse he bought expressly for Fanny to teach Miss Crawford to ride, with the promise that it would never inconvenience Fanny or interfere with her rides. Instead, they start keeping the horse later and later until Fanny just starts telling Edmund that she doesn’t want to ride most days. 

Edmund seems to have fallen quite head over heels for Miss Crawford, but recalls Fanny when she ends up ill from running hither and yon on errands for her aunts one day. And his recovery seems complete: ‘Vexed as Edmund was with his mother and aunt, he was still more angry with himself. His own forgetfulness of her was worse than anything which they had done. Nothing of this would have happened had she been properly considered; but she had been left four days together without any choice of companions or exercise, and without any excuse for avoiding whatever her unreasonable aunts might require.’

S: Initially, I was also rather irritated with Edmund, probably because I relate more to Fanny in temperament and understand how deep that type of hurt can be, but I realised as I read on that I probably would have acted as she did, thinking that things would get better soon, and holding in the disappointment so as to not appear ungrateful or selfish. Perhaps she also is having a difficult time figuring out her feelings. We know at the end of the chapter that she has been dealing with hurt and jealousy, but I wonder if she realised how deep those feelings were until that evening when Edmund took her side and reprimanded his mother and aunt. In a way, I’m not sure I can as yet fault Edmund too very much – he is a man who has begun to have the inklings of love (or should I say infatuation?), and Miss Crawford is so different from the other women in his life.

I also find myself rather uneasy about how Mrs. Norris acts, for, as much as I dislike her, I think about my own attitude, failings, and excuses I can make. I find myself rather horrified that I can act like she does when I know I am in the wrong but am embarrassed and trying to excuse it.

I do think that people don’t give Fanny enough credit – I think she’s stronger than anyone believes she is. If she were treated kindly and not henpecked or pushed aside I don’t think she would be as physically weak as everyone assumes her to be, including Edmund.

R: I think it’s very much human nature to act in ways that we believe will most benefit us, whether intentionally or not. I feel like Mrs. Norris represents all of us at our worst. 

Finally, Fanny goes back to her regular rides, and then Edmund manoeuvres everything to where Fanny can indeed join them on their visit to Mr. Rushworth’s estate, intending to remain behind with his mother himself. But then Mrs. Grant offers to stay with Lady Bertram, so Edmund can go after all. 

There is some debate between the Miss Bertrams over which will sit with Mr. Crawford in the driving seat. Julia wins and Miss Bertram must ride in the back with the other ladies. Miss Bertram is jealous of her sister getting to sit with Mr. Crawford, problematic as she is engaged! I looked up what a barouche looks like because I’ve always wondered, and they are the same or very similar to those you see giving people carriage rides in cities and parks.

S: This chapter was interesting, but I am a bit nervous about what might transpire for Fanny – her luck seems to turn on a dime. Although I do like the way Edmund thinks of Fanny I don’t know if he always thinks about the consequences of making her happy. He bought a horse for her, but she is constantly harangued with Mrs. Norris’s assertions that she still doesn’t exercise enough. He proposed that she visit Sotherton whilst he remained with his mother, but I’m sure that if Mrs. Grant had not chosen to stay with Lady Bertram Fanny would have had a very difficult time visiting Sotherton without Edmund.

R: That’s a good point. Fanny probably would not have enjoyed the trip much without Edmund there. The others would have taken little notice of her or her needs and would have just dragged her along with whatever they wanted to do.

S: Regarding Miss Bertram’s attitude in the barouche, I thought this rather amusing – as much as I dislike her character, I do understand the pride that comes from knowing more about something than others and being able to share it when you have been feeling very out of sorts a moment before.

More and more we are seeing the true nature of the characters. Edmund and Fanny agree on so much, including the importance of family worship, and yet he is still being seduced by Miss Crawford’s careless attitude toward it and life. Mr. Crawford is not being quite fair to Miss Bertram, whispering to her and giving her a certain look when they are near the altar of the chapel together, and I wonder if they are destined for each other. Poor Julia is now subdued and a little humbled by all that transpires. I think my favourite part was the discourse on the importance of the Church and clergymen. 

R: Miss Crawford deserved the shock she got in learning that Edmund was going to be a minister! Fanny seems far better suited for Edmund than Miss Crawford, but he needs a little more time to discover that for himself. I enjoyed that conversation myself.

Mr. Crawford and Miss Bertram are playing with fire, and doing so at Mr. Rushworth’s own estate is particularly obnoxious.

S: We end Chapter 9 and begin Chapter 10 with Fanny once again being forgotten and the thing she had been looking forward to exploring on the grounds abandoned because everyone else was ready to go back to the house. I’m not sure what I would have done in her place – would I have stayed alone, hoping for someone to come back or would I have gone ahead and explored on my own? As she was chastised for remaining, I’m sure she would have been chastised for exploring. Mrs. Norris’s manipulation strikes again and she is the only one in the entire company who left Sotherton feeling contented.

R: Yet again, I feel so sorry for Fanny! Always forgotten by others, even by the one person who usually has any amount of care for her. I’m back to being mad at Edmund. I don’t think I could have been quite so passive as Fanny; I probably would have just gone back to the house on my own. 

I can’t remember any of the details of the story, so I’m looking forward to reading what happens next!

S: I am as well! I’ve enjoyed the first ten chapters.